Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:00):
Here we go. And now we’re live. Cool. Let’s wait for some people to come in. Let’s take a look at who’s here. Okay. Studio chat. Nice. Yeah, I’m excited. Mediavine Con is next week in Boston. Definitely looking forward to all the seafood that I’ll be eating.
Eric Hochberger (00:00:30):
All the clam chowder, I hope.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:32):
All the clam chowder. I was looking at something called the Freedom Trail. You know about this, it’s-
Eric Hochberger (00:00:37):
Oh, it’s a thing. Yeah, in my younger days, when I lived in Boston, you could drink the Freedom Trail.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:44):
Oh, okay.
Eric Hochberger (00:00:44):
Or in my older days, I go for the more historical parts of it, but yeah, it’s a good walk,
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:49):
Right. Just got to dress appropriately for it, it’s going to be super cold-
Eric Hochberger (00:00:53):
It will be, but-
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:55):
… and windy from what I’m told, so we’ll-
Eric Hochberger (00:00:59):
Worth it.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:59):
Worth it. Awesome. All right, we got some people coming in. Nice. All right, so I’m here today with Mr. Eric, the CEO, and co-founder of Mediavine. We’re going to be talking about ads, we’re going to be talking about user experience, and a little bit about SEO. I’m actually very excited. I’m very excited for this conversation because I know nothing about what happens on the ad side. And we work with a lot of publishers, and we work with a lot of publishers from Mediavine, and there’s a lot of questions that come up where I’m just like, “I’m just an SEO guy. I have no knowledge or expertise.” So I’m very excited for this conversation. Before we get started, just a quick reminder to everyone. If you have a question during the webinar, please type the letter Q before your question in the chat. Melissa, our awesome moderator is in the background pressing all the cool buttons for us. She’ll catch them in the queue and she’ll put them up for us so we can answer your questions in the Q&A. I’m going to skip all the formal introductions. I want to get straight to talking about ad density. Eric, thanks for joining us. How are you today?
Eric Hochberger (00:02:15):
Good. Is that our formal introduction?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:02:18):
That’s our formal introduction. Cool. All right, so without further ado, let’s dive into this. And with these webinars, what happens is, when people register, they ask questions. And what we’ve done is we’ve condensed these questions into topics and we’re going to go through these. So these are questions directly from people who register for the webinar. So right away, some of the questions that are coming up are about ad density and best practices. What is the current recommended ad density, and how should publishers determine the right percentage or placement strategy for their sites?
Eric Hochberger (00:02:54):
Well, it’s a fun question, especially at this time. All right, I’m going to geek out about ads, so just stop me if I get too into the weeds here. So everything used to be about ad density when the Coalition for Better Ads set a standard of basically run 30% or lower ad density. So that’s ads to content ratio. And that’s what we all followed. And then there was before that the Google ad policy of no more than 50% ad-to-content policy. So that is the official ad density requirements. The industry has recently moved away from that. So what we’re seeing now is a move to more measuring how many impressions users are seeing per session per minute. That’s a popular one we’ve seen from Jounce. We’ve seen other impression-based things. Some things are still density-based, but we are moving away overall at Mediavine from hyperfocusing on density, and moving more towards user experience, or really, “How are we measuring up on these advertiser rankings?” So as much as I’d love to be able to give you an easy answer of saying, “Oh, I don’t know, 26% is the right answer,” I don’t think that is the right measurement anymore. So we’re moving away from ad density, which is why we released Optimize Ad Experience.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:04:09):
That’s-
Eric Hochberger (00:04:10):
But in general… Oh, go on.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:04:12):
Sorry. That’s really interesting. So you’re looking at it not so much from density, but impressions. So you’re looking at how frequently these ads are appearing?
Eric Hochberger (00:04:23):
Exactly. Really, the way I think that advertisers are looking at it, and that’s a lot of the lens of which we look at it, because at the end of the day, even though we represent the publishers, if we want our publishers to get paid, we need happy advertisers. So everything we do is, how do advertisers think about this experience? They have a couple things. They do the screenshot test, which is how many ads are in a particular screen view when the random media buyer takes a screenshot. And that can be very painful. You could always find on a site, maybe a screenshot with five ads. That’s a very bad look to an advertiser. So that’s one way in which we’re evaluating user experience, what does the whole page look like? And then you have things like how many, like I said, impressions per session per minute? So that’s really, “Are we refreshing ads too quickly? Are there too many ads appearing too close together?” There’s a lot of different ways in which that can happen.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:05:18):
Is this something that’s also tracked by device? Is it different for desktop and mobile?
Eric Hochberger (00:05:25):
Yeah, so it really depends on how sophisticated these different algorithms are that are measuring it. And I wish I could tell you they were super sophisticated, you would think they are. But yes, in general you can assume that it will be different on desktop compared to mobile, even though the unfortunate reality is a lot of media buyers are going to be looking at this on their computer. So you can think desktop is going to be still important even if you don’t have a lot of desktop traffic, because a lot of the people who are judging your site are doing it from their work computer.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:05:56):
Right. So I’m assuming now that this is the way that they look at it, the content length, paragraph placement, all of that, is that still relevant?
Eric Hochberger (00:06:11):
I mean, we still think it’s relevant because we can get into the Optimized Ad Experience, the actual logic behind it of why it’s important. But yes, I would say your content length is still going to determine how many ads you can insert in depending on, I would say the engagement of the user. At Mediavine especially, we are not about shoving in as many ads as we can get. I know that was probably more of the ad style from, I don’t know, five years ago. At this point, what we’re really looking at is, “Where is the user most engaged? And let’s get the ads there and not focus as many in the content that are just getting scrolled past, which you’re going to make those metrics look bad.”
Arsen Rabinovich (00:06:51):
That’s really interesting. So you’re basically determining where the ad should be placed and what kind of ad and the frequency based on where the user’s attention is within that content?
Eric Hochberger (00:07:01):
Yeah, and definitely based on the device they’re using. I wish the measurement was as sophisticated, but Mediavine definitely is doing it based upon the device.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:07:09):
That’s interesting. And this is all a part of the Optimized Ad Experience right now?
Eric Hochberger (00:07:12):
Correct.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:07:13):
Awesome, I love that. One of the questions that came in was about revenue and user experience, and this is where a lot of the questions, especially when I do coaching and when I talk to publishers, that’s where it is. So how can publishers strike a right balance between maximizing revenue and maintaining a positive user experience, especially when they don’t want pages to feel overrun by ads?
Eric Hochberger (00:07:36):
And that is a fair request. I would say first, obviously I’m going to shill for obviously my favorite thing, which would be turning on Optimized Ad Experience, but in addition to that, I want everyone to focus on, again, where’s your user most engaged? And that’s really going to determine this. If you shove a bunch of ads in the content that users aren’t even looking for, you’re going to make your page feel overloaded by ads. And by the time they get, if you’re a food blogger down to the recipe card, they might just scrolled past 20 ads, however long your content is. And those ads didn’t really make you the money you think it is because the user wasn’t engaged in that part of the page. So really, I think what you should focus on isn’t the total number of ads you have in the page, but really what is the user experience like where the user’s most engaged?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:08:28):
So we know that Google discourages above-the-fold ads. And they have a way that they render the page and they take a look at it, and a lot of it is about overwhelming the user. How does this factor into it? How does the Optimized Ad Experience deal with that?
Eric Hochberger (00:08:47):
So I would say Mediavine in general has always discouraged the above-the-fold ads, especially with the advent of Core Web Vitals. I know we started at that point. Honestly, a lot of it was CLS driven at that point, because if you were trying to render an ad above the fold, it was almost impossible not to cause CLS, unless it was an adhesion that stuck on the page. So overall, you don’t even need Optimized Ad Experience if you’re with Mediavine, we try to avoid above-the-fold ads. We slowly have deprecated things like the leaderboard or the top sidebar ad in favor of ads that are below the fold for that exact reason. Google Search is obviously a lot of the drivers, so we have to always separate Google Search from Google Ad Exchange. So Ad Exchange is who we work with, our ad manager, who are going to encourage us to put as many ads above the fold as you can. And then you have the search side that are like, “No ads above the fold.” So that is the direction that Mediavine took as well.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:09:47):
And maybe you’ve done some kind of analysis internally, but is there any behavioral metric, like scroll depth, bounce, or session duration that reveal any kind of user experience train from ads on a page?
Eric Hochberger (00:10:03):
Yeah. So the one that we track internally is session duration, it’s the one that we use as our guiding line for, “What did that do for user experience?” The problem is a lot of the other ones like bounce rate I know can be, I’m going to just say modified. We’ll go with the nicest word I can come up with.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:10:19):
Yeah, I’m with you.
Eric Hochberger (00:10:21):
Yeah, you fire one event, and suddenly you can make your bounce rate look really low. So the one we track is session duration. Yeah, we’ve only seen positive session duration increases from people that have turned on Optimized Ad Experience. I mean, it’s pretty safe to assume fewer ads mean happier users at the end of the day.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:10:40):
Right. For those who haven’t turned on the Optimize Ad Experience, at which point do you think there’s a diminishing return, so extra ads stop increasing RPM or your ability to earn?
Eric Hochberger (00:10:57):
Seven ads is the point. No, I can’t give an exact number. I think in general though, if you look at your dashboard in Mediavine, I know we will show you by ad unit how your different ads are performing. And I think recipe bloggers have it best, because the recipe-card ad is literally targeted where your user is most engaged. You can just see firsthand what diminishing returns look like. Look at how your in-content ads perform relative to the fewer number of recipe-card ads you’re going to run, and just look at the CPM, how much they’re each producing, and you will see that advertisers will pay more money for fewer better-performing ads.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:11:34):
I’m going to take us off-topic for a second, because this is a question that comes up a lot in my conversations with bloggers, confusion between eCPM and RPM, what’s the difference?
Eric Hochberger (00:11:47):
Oh, this is a good chance to sell everyone on just using CPM. Let’s do it. So RPM is an after-the-fact calculation that we use to determine how much revenue you made per 1,000 sessions. It’s a great metric, I think, that a lot of publishers use to compare how are they doing overall compared to, I don’t know, a year ago or last month. And it’s a healthy number to look at when you’re comparing to yourself. But I think the more important one is how you’re actually earning, which is CPM or eCPM. So a CPM is how much a paid impression, your average you are getting paid for every 1,000 impressions. So if you got a $3 CPM on an ad unit, every thousand impressions you got paid three bucks. And then eCPM takes into account what’s called fill rate. So Mediavine or any ad management company never goes for a 100% fill. We might go for 90, 95, or maybe if it is US desktop, we’ll go for 99%. And eCPM is just taking out the unfilled impressions of from that equation. So focusing on just the paid ones.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:12:47):
So would you say eCPM is a better way to look at your ability to earn?
Eric Hochberger (00:12:53):
Absolutely. I mean, you can always, as a publisher, increase your number of impressions. That is a thing you can do with Mediavine, or if you run your own ads, or any other ad management company. The harder thing to do is increase your CPM, which is why we’re so focused on increasing your CPM. That is what we’re doing behind the scenes all the time at Mediavine. That’s why we build solutions like Optimized Ad Experience, why we focus on higher-performing ads. CPM is the harder one to get, so that is where we want people to focus, “Do you have a high CPM?” And then finding that balance, “If I increase too many impressions, don’t bring that CPM down too much.”
Arsen Rabinovich (00:13:28):
Eric, just me not knowing, because it’s not my world, are all the publishers who are at Mediavine automatically in the Optimized Ad Experience, or is that something that they have to turn on?
Eric Hochberger (00:13:39):
No, that is an opt-in experience. So I do want to warn that almost everyone will see a bit of a dip at the beginning, because remember, advertising algorithms take time to adjust. And if you lower the number of ad impressions, it’s going to take a bit for advertisers to want to pay more for those impressions, it’s not an overnight thing. So because there can be a week or two for advertisers’ algorithms to update, we don’t want to opt people in and tell them, “Hey, we’re going to knock your earnings down for the next couple of weeks,” especially not during, I don’t know, Thanksgiving, Black Friday week. So we want to make it the publishers’ choice when they enable that.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:14:15):
Right. Some of the questions that came in were around the impact on SEO and search visibility from ads. And I’ll chime in here as well on some of this stuff. To what extent does ad density or layout affect search visibility or performance in organic search? And again, we already quickly talked about the top-heavy algorithm that demotes pages with ads pushing content down. And I know at one point, and correct me if I’m wrong, Mediavine created placeholders for ads so that they’re not affecting the shift in content. So there’s a placeholder and then the ads form in there. Do you have anything, any data, any kind of assessments that you’ve done internally to this extent to see how many ads in the layout, at which point they started affecting organic performance?
Eric Hochberger (00:15:15):
Yeah, I think, especially when HCU first came out, we did an analysis to really compare content densities. And the truth is we didn’t see a strong correlation between the different densities and people who are hit by HCU. That was the last algorithm update that we ran that kind of depth analysis on. That didn’t directly answer your question, but what we can say is that UX-wise we have seen increases in session duration when they tone down the number of ads using Optimized Ad Experience. There’s more than a 0% increase, the session duration, that I can tell you. If you have a better user experience at the end of the day, I think you can tell people, “You’re going to probably get benefits from SEO and other search and social traffic.”
Arsen Rabinovich (00:16:06):
Well, it’s a secondary signal. So when we talk about pre-click and post-click as a user signal a lot, and with the leak from the Google API last year, and then the antitrust case, we now know, and the Marie Heinz wrote a whole article about it. So we know that Google uses 70 days worth of user click data to make decisions. So keeping 70 days worth of that information. And we know that the click-through and dwell on a page is a strong signal for Google, whether the content is satisfying the user needs. But the bounce back, you could have amazing content that’s really on point and satisfying and answering the question that the user is looking to get answered, but once they click through, they’re having a bad experience.
(00:16:58):
So algorithmically you’ve satisfied every single check mark to be in the top 10 positions, but once you get that click and they don’t dwell, they’re bouncing back for whatever reason, whether it’s the content or slow-loading site or too many ads above the fold, or they’ve seen this experience before and they weren’t happy with it, they bounce back, and that will affect your rankings and visibility. So it’s not so much a direct correlation from what we’re seeing between ads pushing content down, but just the click back to Google, or the bounce from the page. So this is very interesting. Let’s talk quickly about ad load and page performance. Which type of ads have the biggest impact on page speed or CLS, and how can publishers minimize those effects without losing income?
Eric Hochberger (00:17:55):
Yeah, I think I mentioned this before, one of the biggest causes of CLS is going to be any ad that loads above the fold, because at the end of the day, your page we give priority to. And I think any ad management company does the same thing, where we want your page load first and then we load our ads. And so the issue is, if we’re loading our ads after your page loads, and it’s above the fold, you’re going to cause CLS, as well as impacting largest Contentful Paint and INP. So one of the things that we try to do, like I mentioned before, is just not run those. So if you’re still somehow running a sidebar ad or a leaderboard ad, I would discourage you from running those. Those are going to have the biggest impact on your Core Web Vitals, as well as Google looking at that first-screen view. The rest, we already go out of our way to make sure we’re optimizing. So we lazy load, we’ll in fact defer the auction until enough of your page is loaded. So we’re already very mindful of that. As long as you turn off those above-the-fold ads, you should not have a significant impact to your Core Web Vitals,
Arsen Rabinovich (00:18:56):
The Optimized Ad Experience, have you noticed any impact on mobile-page speed with that running?
Eric Hochberger (00:19:04):
It’s a great question. I’m going to take that one back to the data team to do the analysis, but I’m going to go with probably [inaudible 00:19:10].
Arsen Rabinovich (00:19:10):
I would imagine so.
Eric Hochberger (00:19:11):
I would imagine so.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:19:16):
There’s a follow-up question here, “Should low-traffic publishers disable certain heavy units until traffic scales?”
Eric Hochberger (00:19:26):
Yeah, I think I was one of the bigger proponents back in the day of when you have lower traffic, really focus on advertising for yourself, is the way I used to put it. So if you think about every ad you’re going to put in there, should you instead focus on maybe a signup for your newsletter or to follow you on social, or getting them to another page view rather than focusing as much on ads? I just think there’s less money to be made for you, and there’s much bigger chance for growth.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:19:54):
I love that, because I’m noticing a lot of, especially some of the content creators that are coming from social first to publishing, and I’m seeing some of the questions here in the chat, they’re very concerned about unhappy visitors from too many ads. And I like thinking of yourself when it comes to this, and gaining that visibility, and utilizing that space. That’s very smart, I really like that. Let’s talk about ad placement and design updates for publishers. For publishers redesigning their site or moving from Journey to Mediavine, what are the key considerations for integrating ads seamlessly into the new layout or UX?
Eric Hochberger (00:20:47):
I think a lot of my advice is going to sound like it came from forever ago when we were building Trellis. And I always go with uglier is better when it comes to the actual design. Maybe that’s not what we should be saying when I was designing things, but now I can say it. Going simpler, at the end of the day, I always say bigger fonts so readers can read better. I know that doesn’t always look as pretty as a smaller font, going with, I mean everything I’m sure you have told people as well, using things like system fonts. Make sure you still have a sidebar. I know that for a while people were saying, “Sidebars feel dated.” Again, look at your sticky sidebar performance for that desktop traffic you have, it still can’t be beat. On mobile, just remember, which is how most people are seeing your site, most sites look the same, they’re just focused on your content. So don’t hyper-obsess about having a giant header area. Shrink things down, get them to your content as quickly as possible. As far as moving from Journey to Mediavine, ideally we should take care of that for you, our team. When you’re onboarding with Journey, it’s obviously much more self-serve and you have to worry about those things. When you come to Mediavine, that’s our solution engineers who should be making sure you’re all targeted right.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:22:04):
Can you talk more about sidebar presence? I like where you’re heading with that. So you’re saying on desktop, don’t remove sidebar?
Eric Hochberger (00:22:14):
Yeah, I know there was a really big design trend for a while to get rid of those sidebars, and we’ve been fighting that one. I still think we have ways of doing it. We can do what are called gutter ads, I think is what we call them, not the prettiest of name, which is if you don’t have a sidebar, we’ll just stick them in the white space on the side of the content. I think if you have a well-designed sidebar, and I’m sure you’re going to want that anyway to show off your about me, your social links, just keep it short, and we can insert ads. That is a high viewability, high-performing ads. And going back to the diminishing-returns argument before, another content ad is not worth a lot, but another sticky ad is in fact worth a lot because you’re going to have high viewability and high CPMs as a result.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:22:56):
That’s really interesting. Yeah, I was on that train of, “Sidebar is useless, let’s get rid of it.” I think we got rid of sidebar on our site also at one point, and I was, because it was mobile, and in the single-column view it gets pushed down to the bottom, like, “Let’s just get rid of it. There’s no point.” But that’s very interesting. I’m going to go back to a question that came up earlier about the Optimized Ad Experience. For those testing OAE, how should they evaluate its impact? And should they still group text in tools like Feast or rely on OAE alone?
Eric Hochberger (00:23:31):
Okay, I’m going to go with that second part first, because it’s easier to answer. And I’m going to tell you, the fewer blocks you run, the better in terms of OAE, because it’s not going to break up one of those blocks when it’s looking for the next place to insert the ad, and you might push it beyond where it’s the most optimized position to be. I understand, for certain sites it is important to block certain content together and not have it interrupted. So I’m never going to tell you don’t ever do it. Just be careful not to overuse it. We’re going to be mindful of where we insert ads, but if you have, I don’t know, entire screen views that are blocked off, it’s not going to be able to do its thing. Now back to the beginning of the question, which was… Remind me, because I just gave such a long answer.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:24:15):
Yeah. How should they evaluate impact of OAE?
Eric Hochberger (00:24:19):
Great question. And honestly right now, one of the problems with Optimized Ad Experience’s impact is you are in October, which has been a historically soft October. So that’s not just for Mediavine, for the industry. We think a lot of it has to just do with, honestly, the state of the economy. The Amazon just announced they’re laying off 30,000 employees. So advertisers right now are a little scared to spend, I think. So you’re seeing just a delay in the commitment for Q4. We’re really hoping everything around Black Friday is still going to pick back up the same way it always does, because a lot of these budgets were already preset, but you can see why, if you turn it on in early October and you have depressed RPMs right now, and you’re judging performance, you may think, “OAE is terrible. What is this Eric I telling me to turn on?” What I’d rather you look at are stats that don’t change, which are things like viewability, as well as the impressions per session that you are running.
(00:25:16):
So you should see a decrease in your impressions per session because you’re running fewer ads. That’s okay. Just make sure it’s, I would say within a realistic realm. So 10% decrease is probably a healthy number to see. If you see a 90% decrease, that means you probably were pretty heavily reliant on in-content ads. Turn that back off and email our support team, because that is a very large drop. So make sure you have a reasonable drop, and then make sure you’re getting a corresponding improvement in viewability. So if you see a five to 10% drop, but you’re seeing a five to 10% increase in viewability, you just literally lost no money. So that is the right move, because long-term, a 5% increase in viewability means you have 5% increase in RPM. So it is okay to give up 5% of impressions. So those two numbers are safe to look at regardless of seasonality and the economy.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:26:07):
So what’s the average timeframe before revenue stabilizes after turning… And in a stable environment, let’s say, what would be the normal timeframe?
Eric Hochberger (00:26:17):
So this is going to vary based on the size of your site, but I would say most sites can assume it will take one to two weeks. That is the longest we’ve seen it take. So I think we’ve always warned people about ramp-up periods when you first join Mediavine, of taking up to 90 days. So don’t think this is going to take 90 days. If you’ve been with Mediavine for a while, these sites already know you. That all said, we are working, I’m not even sure how much I should this, but some of these advertising tools like Jounce, so Jounce Media is used by a lot of advertisers. That was the thing I was saying before with impressions per session per minute, they’re the ones who set that standard. So we’re working with Jounce to really measure what’s the impact to advertisers, and they’re actually going to be creating a list of sites that are meeting these new requirements.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:05):
That’s pretty cool.
Eric Hochberger (00:27:06):
And those lists are manual. Yeah. So we’re really excited by that partnership, shouldn’t be breaking that one on your podcast.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:13):
You heard it here first.
Eric Hochberger (00:27:15):
Also, still tune into the Mediavine webinar where we’ll be announcing these things. What I will tell you though is, if it’s a more manual thing, like an agency putting you onto what’s called an allow list, or removing you from a block list, depending on the way they go, that could be manual and take longer, but for the most part you’ll see most of the impact within that week or two. And then know that the manual stuff might take months, but just ride it out with OAE and it’ll be worth it.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:42):
So if OAE, the Optimized Ad Experience prioritizes high-value placements, do bloggers still need to do text grouping or spacing tweaks? I think we [inaudible 00:27:55] earlier.
Eric Hochberger (00:27:56):
Yeah, I’ll always discourage those as much as you can.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:28:01):
Good. Maximizing RPM efficiency, a lot of questions came around on that, and they’re grouped together. What are the most effective ways to improve RPM with minimal ongoing effort? So more money, less effort, please, what metrics should publishers monitor?
Eric Hochberger (00:28:19):
Yeah, I think that the biggest driver to your RPM is going to be that impressions per session that I gave, because again, CPM is on Mediavine, we are the ones who are optimizing that for you. The thing under your control is impressions per session, but I don’t want you to think, “Let me just go crank up my density to hit that number higher.” Instead, focus on, “How can I get increased session duration or more engaged users?” I’d rather people focus on that. And since I’m talking to an SEO who’s going to tell you that’s going to help with your SEO rankings as well, it’s a double whammy, but that is the best way to improve your RPM, just get your users to stay on the page longer.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:28:55):
Right. And there’s all kinds of techniques that we cover in our coaching on how to do that. So we talked about larger fonts, shorter paragraphs, extra images, video units. Any other advice on improving that?
Eric Hochberger (00:29:13):
I think we should go to your tips. But no, again, it really comes down to just focus on user experience and getting your engaged user, and not trying to get them with just one more ad because of your content, get them to stay on your content for longer.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:29:30):
Video and recipe-card ads, and we touched on this a little bit earlier, how do video ads or recipe-card ads influence both site performance and SEO?
Eric Hochberger (00:29:42):
Let’s go with recipe-card ads since that’s the more fun one, I think to talk about. Without a doubt, if you are a food blogger, or how-to or craft, and you have a recipe card or a how-to card, that is your most valuable content. That is where the user at the end of the day is probably going to jump to, if you have a jump button, which you obviously should, or they’re going to scroll to if you don’t. We’ll get them all too [inaudible 00:30:06].
Arsen Rabinovich (00:30:05):
We have a jump button.
Eric Hochberger (00:30:08):
So they click jump, they’re going to be there. You have to run recipe-card ads, that is where the user is spending most of their time on your page. We have a pretty good default setup. We don’t try to go too crazy with them compared to maybe some of the competition, but if you end up with a few ads in that recipe card, I know you’re going to think, “I have so many ads.” Realize, most of the webpages you browse on the internet have way more ads than your site. Look at the top 10, you’ll be okay. Run fewer in-content ads and keep those recipe-card ads, they’re the most valuable ones for a recipe-card site, or again, how-to or other craft. Video? That is a tougher one. So the easiest way to justify it is to look at your ad unit report, that thing makes you so much money, it can make you 30 to 40% of your revenue.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:30:56):
Interesting.
Eric Hochberger (00:30:57):
Yeah. Is it the best user experience? I think even as an ad management company CEO, I can say no, it’s probably not the best experience on your page. I think we can all agree with that, but at the end of the day, this is all a balance, user experience versus revenue. And I think it’s going to be very tough to justify turning off a unit that makes you that much money.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:31:18):
What would you say is the best way to implement the video ads so that they’re not bothersome to the user?
Eric Hochberger (00:31:26):
So that’s something we are always personally trying to work on. At the end of the day, a lot of people are not watching the videos on your page. I know that’s not a thing people want to hear. You spend so much effort building these videos. I think when they’re on a social platform, and you’re on something like, oh, I don’t know, TikTok, or YouTube Shorts, or Reels, people are just watching video, period. They’re not consuming [inaudible 00:31:50] content, right?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:31:50):
Right.
Eric Hochberger (00:31:51):
They come to your webpage, they’re there for, honestly, text. That’s the webpage experience. So you might have an amazing video that shows how to make your recipe, and it’s incredible, but most users are not watching it. When we leave videos on click-to-play and not autoplay, you are lucky to get a one to 2% click-through rate. And we would kill for that actually on a lot of the sites. Some sites see sub 1%. So that’s a good indication of how many people are actually watching that video. So again, things I shouldn’t be admitting as an ad guy, but video ads are what matter most, not necessarily the content that’s playing, which is why we try to optimize for what we call the universal player, where we are focusing on how many video ads can we get to play on the page? And we are trying to always measure where’s the best place to put that, and I think we’re even testing some new designs recently to be the least disruptive to the user. We’re very cognizant of that experience and making sure it is the least disruptive.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:32:52):
On a lot of the sites that we analyzed, the ones that do have video content, a big part of this is also the theme and the layout. Videos that are above the fold, that show the process of the recipe, tend to have a longer dwell time from people who are landing there. We also noticed a similarity there, some of our larger publishers who we work with, who use Microsoft Clarity, have reported to us that the flat lays of ingredients on recipe posts also tend to be where users dwell the longest. Whether they’re out shopping and they’re looking at it, all your ingredients. And the recommendation typically is don’t just put the ingredient in a cup, but actually the box that you bought it in, so it’s easy for you users to identify. And again, just me being, forgive me, absolutely ignorant about how you guys handle video ads, is it possible to position the video player on a different part of the page?
Eric Hochberger (00:34:09):
Yeah. So we let the publisher, especially if it’s going to be a click-to-play video player, you can place it wherever you want. In fact, if you want, you just turn off… I can’t remember the name of the features, I should know all these features by heart, but we have something, I know on the backend we call it hoisting, which is not the brand-friendly term that we use on the front end, but we will bring your video player as high as we can. And that’s just to make sure it gets seen earlier. Just from an autoplay standpoint, the sooner we can show it, the better. But if you have a place where you want to place it, you can turn that feature off, and that’s just us optimizing the placement for you. Turn it off and you can place it wherever you want, we certainly support that
Arsen Rabinovich (00:34:52):
And you have full control whether you want it to play or click-to-play, right?
Eric Hochberger (00:34:55):
Yeah. So one of the things that we have found, a great strategy is you can do click-to-play, which is going to get you your highest CPMs, by the way. From an advertiser standpoint, if someone clicks play on your video, they’re going to pay four to five times as much compared to an autoplay video. They don’t pay 50 times as much, which is why we still do autoplay, because if you remember, I said the CTRs are generally low. So one of the things we do to make up for that is we will have the universal player showing outstream ads, which are what it’s called if it’s not next to content. So you can place your click-to-play in the best place possible and not worry as much with a revenue impact, because we can still have the universal player picking up that slide.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:35:41):
Somebody a content creator can create a video showing step-by-step, “Here’s everything you need for this recipe,” or recipe explained in less than 60 seconds, and put it right above the fold, below the opening paragraph, saying a little bit of meta information above it, “Here’s how long it takes to prepare, how many portions it yields, and calorie count,” whatever it is, star rating. And then place the video, watch this video, before they get to the main content, click to play. And then again, from what we’ve analyzed, and we were looking at it from a perspective of, “Now that we got the click to the page, how can we retain the user on the page? Because we don’t want that bounce back to Google.” So with a lot of the blogs that we’ve looked at, and the data that we’ve looked at, and mind you, it’s nothing that’s publishable, it was just a handful of assessments, those videos tended to perform very well. They got clicks, and people actually were consuming… For me, looking at a video, especially for a recipe, makes more sense than reading through it before I get into it to see if this is something that I’m actually going to make.
(00:36:59):
So those tended to do very well along with those flat lays of ingredients. But yeah, as a technique, if you already do have video, definitely utilize it, place it where you’re going to capture the user before you expect them to take any kind of action. Obviously you don’t want it to start playing right away, especially with sound, that will get the back button clicked faster than anything, but it does work. Have you done, and this is a few follow-up questions here, again about video, ideal video length for monetization without hurting speed… Well, you know what? Forget the speed part, for monetization?
Eric Hochberger (00:37:43):
Yeah, we’re actually exploring a new player technology right now that I’m probably going to regret whatever I say right now, because it might change.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:37:50):
You heard it here first again.
Eric Hochberger (00:37:52):
All right, I like giving all the spoilers here. I would say 60 seconds tends to be the number we’ve given people in the past. 30 to 60 seconds is going to be your ideal content length. And I know that sounds very short, but the truth is, if we’re only showing 15 or 30 seconds of ads, and you end up with an eight-minute long video, you don’t get additional ad opportunities currently. We’re exploring this, how we could best do this, but I would say shorter-form content is king when it comes to revenue.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:38:22):
I have a few questions here I’m going to take, because we got through a lot of stuff real quick. There is a question, Melissa, I cannot press the button for this one, from Anne, “I’m afraid to have more ads on my blog. If I choose the Optimized Ad Experience…” Thank you, “… and my readers in France hate ads.”
Eric Hochberger (00:38:51):
I think readers everywhere hate ads. That’s a global thing, it’s fine. [inaudible 00:38:57]. Again, things I’m not normally supposed to say. I would say Optimized Ad Experience, unless you are running the lowest density, is rarely going to add more ads to your page. I don’t think people should be afraid to try it, but the best thing I’ll always say is you have control at Mediavine. Turn it on, go see what your top pages look like on your phone, on your desktop, and see if you’re comfortable with that experience. And maybe, I don’t know, ask a couple of your readers in France how they feel about that experience as well. In general, it should not significantly increase your number of ads.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:39:32):
Another question here, and this came from somebody when they registered with Journey, “There’s a limited opportunity to optimize or change ads. What’s your recommendation for how to optimize with what we’ve got?”
Eric Hochberger (00:39:46):
Right now I believe we just give you a slider right now within Journey. Again, I’m going to keep just giving all the fun spoilers, it’s why you got to bring the CEO on all the time. We are looking at ways to bring more of the same Mediavine features to Journey. I would say hold out a little bit and you’ll be able to get more controls, but in the short term, yeah, I don’t even think we brought Optimized Ad Experience, or maybe we have, to Journey, I think that might be the optimized setting in there, if it’s not live today. So yeah, it is, sorry, just that slider at this point.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:40:23):
Gotcha. There’s so many questions about, “How do I improve earnings with minimal effort?” I love it, there’s so many of those questions.
Eric Hochberger (00:40:29):
Push the easy button.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:40:32):
Good. Okay. So would you say that moving over to the Optimized Ad Experience is something that you would recommend to all publishers, or are there some publishers that should tread carefully when they’re making that decision?
Eric Hochberger (00:40:46):
I’d say 95% of publishers, it’s a pretty easy decision. There are some red flags to look out for. If too high of a percentage of your revenue comes from in-content, that is when you should be worried. And you can see that again in the ad unit report, what percentage of your revenue is coming from in-content. If it’s above, I don’t know, 40%, 50%, tread carefully. If it’s something like 80, 90%, which we’ve seen on some sites, you aren’t running universal player or aren’t running sidebar ads, don’t turn it on. I’m just going to tell you, it’s going to decrease your revenue. I would say honestly that’s the biggest one. And then the other opposite ends of the spectrum are people that are running the lowest density settings, you may end up with more ads as a result, just because it was designed really for people that are running that 24 to 30% ad density, which is where we see most of our publishers. If you’re lower than that, you might see some higher ads, which I don’t think is going to be a problem, because all of our OAE people are currently on track to hit those new ad measurements very well. But if you are very hyper-focused on not running a lot of ads, you probably won’t want to increase your number of ads.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:42:00):
That makes sense. There was another question here, and I don’t know if this is even possible, “How often should we audit Mediavine settings for leaks in revenue potential?”
Eric Hochberger (00:42:13):
We are trying to do a better job, I think, at Mediavine and making sure we give you those recommendations. I don’t think it’s fair to ask you to audit Mediavine settings ever. So we’re going to work on ways to surface that for you. So you shouldn’t have to, but when things come out like Optimized Ad Experience that are opt-in, we definitely email you, we definitely put it all over the dashboard. You will know when there’s something you’re missing out on. That is my commitment to you. I don’t want you to audit.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:42:43):
So we’ve looked at a lot of data when it comes to post-click, so once the user clicks over. And we’re looking at how they progress through the website, so depth into the site, so not just the page that they landed on. And a lot of the times when we coach and when we provide recommendation, we say, “Hey, you want to create supporting content. Look at it from a perspective of jobs to be done. What else does the user need to know? Not that they’ve came here to learn this, they’ve learned it, what else do they want to know?” And a lot of times with travel it’s a little bit easier, because you can be like, “Oh, now that you’ve learned the best places to see, maybe you want to know where to stay or where to get the best whatever have you.”
(00:43:31):
With recipes, it could be something along the lines of, “Proper preparation, or how to cut up these potatoes, or best way to make this bread in the bread machine.” Is there a difference in monetization between… And the reason I’m asking this is because I always say, “Hey, this is another earning potential for you. You’re creating content that’s on point, the user is going to want to click through and engage with and dwell on.” Does it earn differently? Does this content, the supporting content, content that you’re not necessarily looking to rank, but it’s there as a supporting piece of content to your primary piece that’s ranking, does that earn differently?
Eric Hochberger (00:44:14):
So is this on a second-page view, we’re clicking [inaudible 00:44:17].
Arsen Rabinovich (00:44:17):
Yeah, second-page view.
Eric Hochberger (00:44:19):
In general, yes, the second-page view will perform a little bit worse than the first-page view, not significantly. When we see the drop-off in terms of when ad performance happens, it is, I’m thinking the old slideshow content that I’m sure you guys have all experienced back in the day where you had to click to slide 23 in order to find whatever you clicked on, then you’re going to see significant diminishing returns. I wouldn’t worry too much. If you get a small percentage drop, I would still take that additional revenue every day of the week. So on a typical lifestyle site, you are never going to create too deep of a page-view depth. So do it, create that additional content, 100%.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:45:03):
Have you noticed a difference between what kind of ad density is best based on the theme or the content of a webpage, as an example, a recipe post versus a roundup?
Eric Hochberger (00:45:20):
Yeah, that is a great question and something that we are always trying to analyze, is different page types, especially on more complex… So we’ll have enterprise sites that will have very different templates on their different pages. I know on a food blogger that is a great example, a roundup versus a recipe card. Those are two very different experiences. And therefore I will say should have different ad experiences as well. As I mentioned before, you have the greatest weapon in your arsenal when it comes to ads, and that is recipe-card ads on a recipe-card page, you don’t necessarily have that. One of the reasons why when we built Create, we made sure that we placed ads between the list items. It is all about like, “Where can we put those ads?” And if you use the blocks, I know I even just said earlier don’t use the blocks, you can also help control where those placements are. So think about like, “Where can I get…” See where the default ads are placed in themselves, and then you can strategically adjust. But again, always come back to where are the readers dwelling. And if it is a list, are you encouraging them to click to another page on your site or off page?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:46:26):
Right. We’ve had a lot of conversations with Casey, and we got into a few heated discussions over this, recipe-card placement. I preach that the recipe card is a part of your post, it’s content on the page. Yes, because of the plugin and the nature of how it’s presented, it looks like it’s a separate part, because there’s a border around it, it looks like a section, but it’s where you’re telling the user to go. You have a jump-to-recipe button, you’re telling the user, “Hey, everything here is okay, but the main part of this is the recipe card.” And the recipe card itself, there’s an H2, there’s subsections, there’s a lot of important information. So when we talk about jobs to be done, “I am a user, I searched for how to make apple pie, and I landed on your page.” And we want to take the user through steps that are logical, logical order operation, “Things I need to know before I make the recipe, how to make the recipe. And now that I’ve made the recipe, what else do I need to know?” And that’s usually how to serve, how to store, and FAQs and all of that.
(00:47:49):
Typically bloggers will have an H2 section, how to make this recipe, and they will have instructions with process photography. A lot of the sites that we’ve cleaned up, post helpful content update in 2023, were sites that were essentially just rewriting those steps. So you had no diversity other than different words between what appeared in the recipe card, ingredients and instructions, and what appeared above the recipe card in those sections. Maybe there was a little bit of a difference, but complete redundancy. When we started removing those parts, we started seeing recoveries, we started seeing improvements. So we changed our approach. We said, “Hey, if you don’t have anything unique to add to the instructions that you have in your recipe card, there’s no reason to have that section twice, because Google is going to see it as filler content, redundant content, you’re just doing this to improve length or keyword stuffing.” So we started experimenting with, “Hey, let’s use the recipe card as an actual section on the page. So you have pre-cooking instructions from the top, here’s everything you need to know about the ingredients, some notes, substitutions, things you need to know.” The recipe card, this is the central point of the post where users are focusing on making the recipe. And then below the recipe card, everything you need to know, secondary content.
(00:49:26):
Casey is looking at it from a perspective of, “The recipe card should be towards the bottom because you’re going to kill off a lot of earning, because people are not going to go past the recipe card if it’s in the middle of the post. They’re not going to read what’s below. They’re going to just get that information.” And the argument is I click on the jump-to-recipe button anyways, and I’m going to go there. Have you seen, and I know these experiments have been done, I don’t know how much you’ve done it over at Mediavine, but have you seen a difference between moving the recipe card closer to the top versus having it at the bottom, in terms of earning?
Eric Hochberger (00:50:03):
So the truth is a lot of publishers don’t do that. So we don’t actually have the dataset to be able to see publishers that have their recipe card up higher, what happens to all those other metrics you’re talking about. We have historically seen people not scroll past recipe cards, that much I can tell you. We have looked at, “Should we insert ads below the content?” And we have tried many experiments. And when we say below the content, I mean below the recipe card. There’s not a lot of people that go down there. If you look at comment ads, which we used to run, ads in your comments, I wish most of your users got down to the comments. And I know personally, I will go down to them on certain types of content, 100%, as a user, I will go down to the comment section, but the average reader does not on a food blog.
(00:50:50):
This is what we’ve seen so far. I would love for us to be able to change that. Everything you’ve just described sounds correct from a user experience. It should be pre, then the recipe card, and then the post content. That makes 100% logical sense. We just don’t have the data because not a lot of people do it that way. So maybe we can set up an experiment if we have a couple sites running that, or if they have, you were saying Clarity, I think is what a lot of them are using to measure that. I’d be very curious what the stats look like. Can we change user behavior to get more people to scroll past that recipe card? We would have no problem with it as an ad company.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:51:28):
That’d be very interesting to see, because one of the main reasons why we want to move it up, from an SEO perspective, is to cut down on the need to add filler text. And we talk a lot about this from a unique-perspective lens. In the recipe card, you want to keep it brief, short, to the point, it’s very instructional, bullet pointed. And if you are going to have a section on how to make this, you want to have some kind of a value add, some kind of a reason for why you have it, instead of just a repetition of the ingredients or instructions in there.
(00:52:07):
So we talk a lot about, “Hey, can we provide any kind of unique perspective, any kind of sensory cues, any kind of things to avoid in the how-to-make section outside of the recipe card?” And if you can’t, then there’s no point of having it, and the instructions should be within the recipe card. And that applies to any section of your site. If it’s in the recipe card, it should probably not be repeated unless you have something that’s unique, otherwise Google’s just going to look at it as filler text. So there’s a question here, AI scraping content and how it affects RPMs, any kind of analysis or research that you’ve done on that?
Eric Hochberger (00:52:52):
In terms of AI content?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:52:56):
So I’m assuming dropping in rankings for scrape content.
Eric Hochberger (00:53:02):
Yeah. And I mean, obviously, I’m sure you see it all the time, that AI slop can find its way temporarily, I think a boost in the rankings. My hope is that all that other post stuff that they’re measuring of user behavior, as we get more sophisticated as users, AI slop will not be getting the same metrics. The problem is the average consumer, I don’t think can spot AI slop right now, which is a shame, I think especially to somebody like a food blogger who spends how much time making this thing in the kitchen, and photographing it, and is putting in a day’s worth to make a piece of content, and then someone will go make an AI slop version that for some reason performs, I can tell you this, almost as well from an advertiser standpoint.
(00:53:45):
If you listen to podcasts by the advertising world, so far they don’t care whether they’re buying on AI slop or on a quality Mediavine site. And this is one of the fights that we’ve been having, is trying to educate. But I think at the end of the day, we need to educate consumers, they need to care more, but as long as the metrics look the same, Google doesn’t care and advertisers don’t care. And that is the terrible truth, but I know as a user I care. I’m not going to go buy all these ingredients and cook something and then have it turn out to be under garbage because AI just pieced together eight different meals with no actual intelligence behind it. That’s my long way of saying we don’t see a difference in RPM today, but that is something we’re campaigning and fighting for.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:54:29):
We look at it from a perspective of, especially in AIO, and I think you and I quickly talked about this earlier, we’re looking at keyword data right now. We pulled in keywords and we’re looking at what query types across travel and across food and across DIY are triggering results that have AIO in them. And then we’re looking at how the AI overview is formulated. And now we’re able to actually look at who’s being cited as the source, and then what part of that source’s content is being used to synthesize the answer. So we’re able to trace it all the way to the source. And the interesting thing is that when we look at it from a perspective, especially in the recipe space, there’s much less presence of AIO reviews for keyword types that have the word recipe in them. There are much more for anything that’s how to, or how long, and ingredients also have a lot of AIO.
(00:55:32):
And then when we look at it from what’s being synthesized and what’s being presented, it’s essentially a summary. It’s not just a recipe, a summary, so like, “How do you keep your pumpkin pie from cracking?” And there’s information from different sources. It’s not just, “How do you make pumpkin pie?” Which is they’re going to give you instructions. And we see that Google is trying to move away from that. We’re seeing less and less AIO surface in how to make a specific dish as a process, but we are seeing a lot of AIOs when it comes directly to answering questions. The reader that reads that response and chooses to click on that little link button, and then in a sidebar click on your result, has consumed some information that the user is aware is coming from your site. A click-through is now a much more valuable click-through in terms of dwell and in terms of how much time.
(00:56:37):
And Google has produced some data. There’s been some studies, I think it’s anecdotal, it’s done in a vacuum, but they’re saying that this user is much more valuable. They’re going to stay on the site longer, they’re going to look at more pages, most likely subscribe to your email list, because it wasn’t an impulsive click from a search result just from reading your title and your meta description. They read a snippet, established that they are interested in your information, and they’ve made a conscious decision to read more from you. Do you see in the future, because bloggers are getting less traffic because of these AIOs, because quick answers, we know this, this was a case with featured snippets, where a lot of bloggers who used to rank for metric conversions and all of that, ounces to grams and all of that, used to make a lot of money, and then featured snippets came out and that got turned off for everyone. Do you see in the future that those users, those clicks from AIO, the ones that dwell longer, and maybe it is so now, will monetize differently, will make more money to adjust for the less-traffic aspect of this?
Eric Hochberger (00:57:53):
Yeah, I mean, I saw, I think the same Google study you did when they first announced those numbers. Was it Google I/O or wherever it was where they’re like, “We’re sending less traffic, but that traffic is [inaudible 00:58:03].”
Arsen Rabinovich (00:58:02):
Better traffic.
Eric Hochberger (00:58:04):
Right. The problem right now is a very small amount of traffic they’re sending. So it’s a tough thing to measure when they’re sending fractions of a percent compared to what they send with orgap, I do think we’re in the very early stages of, I don’t know, what are we calling it, GEO? What do you call optimizing for that?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:58:21):
LMFAO. Yeah [inaudible 00:58:23] GEO, generative engine optimization.
Eric Hochberger (00:58:25):
Yeah, I like yours better, but yeah. So if it’s GEO, I think that is the future. At the end of the day, I think answering something, that AI is just going to give the answer to the user is not going to be how you get traffic. It’s exactly what you’re saying, is how can we give an answer and then get them to click over for the more in-depth experience? So I don’t know, how long to put chicken in the oven that I searched for yesterday, probably could be answered by AI, but could it instead say how long to cook chicken, “But we instead recommend the following techniques,” and getting me to click over to the page would’ve been a more valuable experience for me.
(00:59:02):
So yes, I will say I think that is going to be the future, and I hope you are correct, and Google is correct, and it makes sense, that is a more engaged user than someone who was just looking for a quick answer of, “Okay, at 350 degrees it’s 12 minutes, done.” Actually it wouldn’t be 12 minutes, I’d be serving raw chicken. So what would it be? 30 minutes. That is not an engaged user. They were just looking for one quick answer, and they probably weren’t the user you wanted on your page to begin with. I think Google is trying to find this balance, I think all of us are trying to find this balance. And I do agree that that is going to be the feature, and I hope it makes up for it with RPM.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:59:40):
What they’re taking away in traffic? Yeah, absolutely. Well, listen, we’re at 59 minutes and 45 seconds. I do have one comment here, it’s not a question. It’s a comment, says, “I was just onboarded from Journey to Mediavine, it was seamless and easy. Thank you.” Eric, anything you want to tell us in terms of what’s happening with Mediavine, any news, any events that people should be aware of?
Eric Hochberger (01:00:03):
I think we teased it at the beginning, but it’s been an hour, so we’re going to bring it back up, we are bringing back the Mediavine conference. Those who aren’t aware, COVID killed the last one, what was it, five years ago, and it’s coming back, and we are really excited. It’s going to be in Boston. Oh, I should have the dates memorized. It’s next Wednesday to Friday-
Arsen Rabinovich (01:00:21):
Wednesday to Friday.
Eric Hochberger (01:00:21):
… whatever dates those are.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:00:23):
5th, 6th, and 7th.
Eric Hochberger (01:00:25):
Thank you. Arsen does his research better than I do. I just hop on the plane and show up where I’m told to. On November 5th, 6th, and 7th, incredible content, including Arsen speaking. Our keynote is actually a company that specializes in just GEO. So we’re going to be talking a lot about all of these topics more in depth. And it is not at all a pitch for Mediavine products. It is literally bringing you experts that are going to teach you things. So I still think we have some tickets left, so come. We have a lot of other exciting things happening at Mediavine. I think I teased accidentally two or three of them on this call. [inaudible 01:01:00].
Arsen Rabinovich (01:00:59):
You heard it here first.
Eric Hochberger (01:00:59):
You heard it here first.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:01:02):
Awesome [inaudible 01:01:03].
Eric Hochberger (01:01:03):
I would say MVCon, it would be my one pitch.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:01:05):
Awesome. Thank you for your time. I know you’re super busy. I really appreciate you coming on board and speaking with us today. I look forward to seeing you next week.
Eric Hochberger (01:01:13):
Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for having me.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:01:15):
Bye everyone. Thanks for coming.
