Melissa Rice (00:00:00):
Well guys, we’re just going to go right into it. Welcome and thank you for joining us for episode 48 of SEO for Bloggers. We know there was a hiccup, there was a small delay, so thank you to everyone’s patience and joining us today. Since we were slightly delayed, a lot of what we’re covering in this episode pertains to some questions that were submitted a few weeks ago, but we still plan on unpacking everything from Q2 and now into Q3 really.
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So as always, we are joined by our panelist, Casey Markee of Media Wyse, Andrew Wilder of NerdPress, Arsen Rabinovich of TopHatRank, and I’m your host, Melissa Rice. Be sure to stick around for our live AMA at the end of the episode. But first, to get your questions in the queue, submit by typing the letter Q, followed by your question in the chat. And if you see a question you’d like answered first, please give it a thumbs up to help rise it to the top.
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All right, we’re going to hop right in now. First question, Casey…
Arsen Rabinovich (00:00:59):
Air traffic control.
Melissa Rice (00:01:03):
How is SEO evolving with AI? And can you provide us with a broad analysis and should we be really worried right now?
Casey Markee (00:01:13):
No. No, you should not be worried. I mean, I know there’s a lot of things to worry about. For example, do you have, how many packs of 10 packs of buns or six packs of buns do you have to buy when there’s only eight hot dogs or is it reversed? I can never remember, Andrew. Tell me, is it six, is it eight? I have to buy eight hot dogs and I have to buy 10 buns? And I’m like, what?
Andrew Wilder (00:01:33):
Focus, Casey, focus.
Casey Markee (00:01:34):
I understand.
Melissa Rice (00:01:35):
That is the right ratio. You’ve got it.
Casey Markee (00:01:37):
Good times, good times. So the thing is we kind of have to zoom out a little bit. SEO in 2025 is no longer just about ranking high in traditional search results. It’s really about being included in AI answer overviews. It’s really by understanding that what Google is returning in many aspects is not what they returned a year ago.
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Here’s kind of the timeline of what has changed. We call it basically we’ll set it up in three phases. We have phase number one, which is the rise of AI Overviews, and that happens starting around April 2023 until about May of 2024. This is when Google launched AI Overviews. We initially called it SGE, which was Search Generative Experience. It was powered by Gemini. It still is. It’s large language model. You saw these summaries, they were basically the new position zeros. They still appear at the top of search results. They answered questions without clicks. They reference blog posts and users sometimes without adequate citations. Good times.
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And the implication of this stage one, this phase one, is that your blog could be helping people but you could not see the visit, you weren’t getting the ad revenue or the brand exposure, so not a good sign. And then we fast-forward again, kind of phase two which was the launch of AI Mode, which happened in May. Basically it went live, May 20th. We tested it in March. Some of us saw it pretty early and we’re like, “Oh gosh, hope this does not go live.” Fortunately, Google has been very clear that they’re looking to migrate features from AI Mode into regular search. You’re not just going to wake up one morning and see, oh my gosh, AI Mode is the default. So there is a positive there.
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But what we’re seeing is that this is a new personalized deep revolution of AI Overview. So we’re seeing basically Google at its best. We’re seeing deep search, we’re seeing live search. We’re seeing this thing called query fan-out, which is breaking the query in a multimodal query so that it can answer the query more deeply. We’re seeing personification, we’re seeing AI shopping. My daughter try to upload a photo of me so that she could see me in a dress, good times. So I just want you to understand that that’s what I’m dealing with when you have 20-year-olds around the house.
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We’re also getting a lot of increase in agentic functions. We’re getting things like users opting into AI Mode for a full AI experience. We’re getting carousels that are disappearing. We’re getting answers blending into a content like a Frankenstein answer. I might look up a recipe for Salisbury steak and get an AI Mode driven recipe that contains components. We call this chunk indexing from numerous other things by means of RAG. RAG basically means Retrieval Augmented Generation, which basically you cannot block and we’re going to get into all that stuff later.
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But basically, Google is becoming a walled garden. Many of you might remember AOL. Remember AOL where you basically went to AOL, you logged in, you answered your email, you did your shopping, you looked at your source scores, all of that. That’s what Google is trying to become right now. It’s basically the AOL of 2025. It’s a walled garden. They’re trying to keep us on Google as much as we can.
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Now we kind of get to where we are now, which is mid-2025. We’ve got AI is now the one and only middleman. We’re getting, you’re no longer writing for Google or basically Google is using an AI filter to summarize your work. Clicks are down. We’re seeing that this is non-anecdotal. It’s not just an on-site SEO issue where it’s structural. We’re seeing a decrease in cert features. We’re seeing reduced carousels, we’re seeing AI boxes. We’re seeing Google’s own ecosystem being pushed to the forefront to take advantage of that attention and traffic away from creators.
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Search is moving beyond keywords, kind of talked about this previously. It’s something that we talked a lot amongst ourselves in the SEO community. It’s basically becoming a GEO over SEO move. We’re getting more local social and generative experiences like TikTok, Reels, Voice Search. That’s mattering more to clients now than the traditional blue links.
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And the thing that we have to understand as SEO is that, and we’re trying to communicate and hopefully that’ll get by today, is that SEO still matters, very important, very important. We have to really focus on structured content. We have to focus on clarity, we have to focus on topical authority. All of these feeds the AI because if we want to be sourced, you have to be crawled, you have to be indexed, you have to be understood.
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And that’s really what my audits are focusing on today. I know Arsen is doing the same thing. Our goal is no longer just ranking. It’s making sure that we’re included in AI generated answers. And so that’s kind of what we’re getting is that the signals are still there, rankings are just different. And our goal of course is just making sure that we understand that.
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To optimize traditionally, we have to update the advice that we’re giving to clients today and tomorrow, because it’s not going to necessarily get worse, it’s just going to be different. SEO is still there, it’s just changing. And that’s currently what we’re looking at right now. So long-winded description.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:06:48):
Cool story, bro.
Casey Markee (00:06:49):
Cool story.
Melissa Rice (00:06:51):
SEO is still important. That’s the takeaway. Andrew, how are people going to be searching for content in the future? More immediately, what can publishers do now to prepare?
Andrew Wilder (00:07:04):
That’s a big question.
Melissa Rice (00:07:06):
Pretty loaded.
Andrew Wilder (00:07:07):
I think there’s short-term and long term, right? Long term, I don’t know. I think we’re going to have a completely different operating system that is just purely agentic, and websites maybe don’t exist anymore. That’s one vision of the future where you just talk to your voice assistant, your Alexa+++ and it does everything for you.
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I don’t know if users are going to want that. I’m certainly not going to want to tell my Echo, “Hey, please transfer money from my checking account to my savings account,” and that’s the only interface I have. I don’t think that’s really going to happen. So I don’t want to get too dystopian long, long term. And I think the bigger concern right now is short-term thinking, and really traffic is still there. We just at NerdPress had to upgrade our Cloudflare account because we have so much traffic going through it.
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So traffic overall is still there. And I want to make that clear because on all the Facebook groups and in our chat here, everybody’s talking about traffic being down. And a lot of people are down and a lot of people are hurting, so I’m not trying to discount that because if you’re one of the people who’s down, that’s a problem. But the people who are doing really well aren’t running around saying, “I’m doing really well.” So we’ve got a filter bubble of certain people voicing opinions. So that is not a hundred percent of the reality.
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And I’m trying to say that to actually be more optimistic, that people are still looking for real content and they’re still going to websites and they still want what you’re offering. So in the big picture, I think all of the advice we’ve been giving over the last 48 episodes ultimately still stands, is provide value to your audience.
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And now I think the big layer to that that I’m seeing is build your brand. Build your audience so that you are getting fewer people, but when those people come, they want you. You can’t be a cookie cutter website that looks like all the others that has the same formula, forgive me. You have to be able to get more value out of that person so that they will then come back to you. And there are a lot of tools for that, getting their email address because you provide something good and they want to come back to it. There’s lots of things you can do.
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I think the other thing is diversifying your revenue stream. So it’s not just about page views and ad units. And we’ve been talking about this and a lot of people have been working on this for years. If you don’t have something you can sell, have other ways to monetize. If you have a travel blog, start offering tours or travel guides. If you have a recipe site, you could be offering an inexpensive download. You can monetize your kit list. There’s lots of ways to bring in revenue. Brand partnerships are still a thing.
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I feel like because of the explosion of traffic and RPMs because of the pandemic, a lot of people got really complacent and said, “Oh, I just need traffic and I can get traffic, and I can get page views very easily. I just drop ad at Mediavines or Raptives, code on my site, and I roll around on the money.” That is going away. I mean, I’ll be just blunt about that. That is going away, right? Or it’s getting harder and harder. So we are going to have to work harder and find alternate revenue streams.
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I do want to share a link from Google from May that’s about succeeding in AI search to try to more specifically answer the question. And they even talk about fewer people are clicking through, but those readers are better qualified. So your bounce rate may be going down, for example. And so if those people are better qualified and they’re sticking around longer, that can help maintain your revenue.
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I don’t know if that was a really useful answer or if I just got on a soapbox by accident, I apologize if so.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:10:40):
There’s a lot of merit in what you’re saying, right? Because we talked about this earlier. So that click from somebody who’s a little bit more informed because they read about whatever you have to say in the AI Overview, they’re there and they’re dwelling. So that value of that user is much higher.
Andrew Wilder (00:10:57):
And people still want to use the internet. Google’s experimenting with all this stuff. We don’t know, AOL didn’t survive, right? I mean actually, I think it’s-
Casey Markee (00:11:11):
Well, actually, AOL survived by means of consolidation.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:11:15):
They high-five each other every time somebody clicks the wrong link, right?
Casey Markee (00:11:20):
AOL is still running right now.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:11:21):
We have a visitor.
Andrew Wilder (00:11:23):
Google is aware of all of these concerns. I genuinely think they don’t want to kill content creators because I don’t think it’s in their best interest to do so.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:11:31):
They need you. They need you.
Andrew Wilder (00:11:34):
They need you. I mean if humans creating content goes away, AI is going to turn into an echo chamber and it’s just going to become really horrible for everybody. And Google knows this, and so-
Arsen Rabinovich (00:11:47):
They’re probably one of the… Sorry, go ahead, Andrew.
Andrew Wilder (00:11:53):
I don’t want to say in defense of Google, but they’re trying to play whack-a-mole with really crap content too. And that’s what the helpful content update was about. So they’re trying to figure this out just as much as we’re trying to figure it out.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:12:05):
Google is one of the biggest buyers of your ad space for all of their remarketing, retargeting. So they need you in that ecosystem. You’re a part of that money-making formula for them. I don’t think there’s going to be a doomsday for you and it’s changing the way people search, and you’re going to have to change how you ideate content and what kind of content you produce and how you write that content. It’s just part of the evolution.
Melissa Rice (00:12:31):
Okay. Well, a perfect segue about writing content. Next question, Arsen, and maybe Casey, you can hop in on this. But a lot of publishers are still unclear on their recipe card placements. Can you discuss a little more about what the best recommendation?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:12:47):
Yeah, look, so Casey and I had a whole episode about this last month. I think Casey and I, and I’ll let Casey chime in. I think Casey and I agree that there’s really no wrong or right way to do this. There is less visibility to the content that’s below the recipe card because the user is done with what they’re looking for. They don’t need anything else.
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Our methodology is focused around splitting the post into a natural flow of jobs to be done. Above the recipe card should be content that the user needs to know, the unique perspective of what the user needs to know before they get into making the recipe. The recipe card is where they make the recipe and then below the recipe card is everything they need to know once they’ve made the recipe, which we consider to be secondary intent. I’m there for this primary thing, not that I’ve made the thing, what else do I need to know?
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And that’s just a method. And again, there’s no right or wrong. Casey has other ways of looking at it and other data to support it, but this is how our methodology is.
Casey Markee (00:13:52):
The thing to understand about SEO is it’s all about the little things. And you also have your own data to look at. I know many of you stocked down Facebook, thank you very much. I appreciate the cookies, maybe not so much the unsigned cards. But if you go to Facebook right now, you’ll see that I shared a case study of a blogger who was hit by the helpful content study, helpful content update… I wish it was just a study… a year ago and their traffic’s up 500% in a year. People are doing great. That blogger has a recipe card at the bottom, never moved.
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And that’s the case with what I tend to recommend is that we want users to scroll through all the content as much as they can because based upon what we see, when you get down to the recipe card, most people, especially considering that that’s been the case for several years, over a decade, they don’t really look at anything below the recipe card. So there’s no scrolling being triggered, there’s no ads to be loaded, nothing there.
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Now, can you be successful with moving the recipe card around? Absolutely. Do I recommend that you move the recipe card around? Not really, because I think that a lot of people make these recommendations based upon the fact that they’re already doing fine, but they think maybe they’ll do better by playing around with a placement when they don’t necessarily need to make huge changes.
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If you’re on the call and you have had success with having the recipe card where it is, I don’t see any reason to change. Just to understand, that’s why we have jump buttons. We want to jump down to that information as fast as we can. You have two groups of users accessing your content. You have the group that’s going to just come print out your recipe card and be on their way, and you’re going to have the other group that is going to stick around and read the whole post. We tend to see that that’s pretty obvious.
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So if you want to play around, use Clarity, you want to use Hotjar, see what actually is being read, I’m all for that. That’s why we have what’s called scroll depth. That’s why we have heat mapping so that we can actually see what is being used and where people are stopping as they go down the page. So just look at your own data, wouldn’t lose much sleep over this. And if you have any specific questions, our emails are always open.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:15:54):
Right.
Melissa Rice (00:15:56):
Okay. Andrew, are AI posts ranking higher than human written content? And do we know what percentage of bloggers posts can be written by AI and still rank for Google?
Andrew Wilder (00:16:10):
So two questions there, right? Are AI posts ranking higher than human written content? I don’t know. I mean, what search are we talking about? But in some cases, absolutely. I can tell you anecdotally for a lot of stuff, especially I find when I’m searching for products like shopping for a mattress, oh my God, or a vacuum cleaner, it’s all like these top 10 posts. And yeah, people are probably building those with AI, if not bots building it themselves. I think those are bad search results and it’s very frustrating, and I give up and I stop using Google. So I think that’s going to get fixed at some point, I hope.
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I think the bigger question is do we know what percentage of bloggers posts can be written by AI and still rank for Google? That’s the wrong question to ask because Google says you can write with AI, we don’t care, we want it to be good content. Now, I’m finding generally the stuff that at least if I can tell it’s written by AI, it’s not good content. If I read it as a user and I can’t tell it was written by AI, is it bad content? Doesn’t matter. If it’s good content, it’s good content. I mean, Google’s been on record for what, two years, over two years saying it doesn’t matter how you generate the content, good content is good content.
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So if you use AI to generate content, it’s probably not great content. If you’re just putting in a prompt and spitting out a whole blog post at this point, the AI results aren’t that good. But if you’re using it to do ideation or you’re writing something and you’re stuck on a paragraph and you can’t figure out how to word something or to make it to say it in a better way, AI is a great use for that, to use it as a writing partner to get you over a hurdle on something. I mean, I use it all the time for that, but most of the time if I have it write a whole thing, it doesn’t work very well anyway.
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So I think the answer goes back to just focusing on creating great content.
Melissa Rice (00:17:58):
Right.
Andrew Wilder (00:18:00):
A hundred percent of your content needs to be great. Maybe that’s the answer.
Melissa Rice (00:18:04):
Yeah. Don’t make any mistakes. All right, Arsen, one blogger shared that they’re ranking number one in traditional Google search results, but when they switch to the AI Overview tab, their content doesn’t appear at all. Are the ranking signals or requirements different for AI Overview, and how can bloggers optimize to appear in both?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:18:27):
Okay, so really good question, and I’m going to start this off by saying that this is evolving. It’s constantly evolving. And the stuff that we were able to using various systems, and I’ll tag Casey in a second here because he knows much more than I do about this. But from the experiments that we’ve been doing and the data that I’ve seen using tools that are being developed and tools that are already out there, tools that help us understand how the answer in the AIO or in AI Mode is synthesized.
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And what we can see, and Casey will talk about this, this query fan-out effect, but essentially it’s going back to optimizing for the topic and not just the keyword. So if you’re ranking for one specific keyword, like let’s say potato soup recipe and somebody searches for, and I’ve done this because it’s my favorite topic, and you ask AI whether it’s in Gemini, AI-Only Mode or sometimes in Google, it pops up. I recently started seeing it coming up for recipe queries. It used to come up, AIOs used to come up for how to make potato soup, potato soup ingredients, but not for potato soup recipe. And now on and off, I’m seeing AIOs come up for recipe queries.
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Having said that, if you say, “Hey, show me the best potato soup recipe,” and it gave me a result. And I know the organic results for this query like the back of my hand. I look at it twice, three, four times a day and I did not see the site. And I asked, “How did you arrive at this result? How did you synthesize this? What did you do?” And it explains what it does. It performs a bunch of queries around what I asked in case you will talk about this more, and it’s looking for brands, not just one post. It’s looking for brands, websites that appear consistently or in majority of those results to establish what’s trusted to learn from, let’s say “learn from” to be able to synthesize that answer for you.
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On top of that, it’s not only being able to show up, it’s being able to present yourself as a valuable source for that knowledge. And a lot of times when you ask for this is what I’m seeing now, this could not be the case, might not be the case tomorrow or the day after. But right now, what I’m seeing is that if I ask for best or let’s say the easiest potato soup to make for a big family, and that’s your claim in your content, it’s also going to read through your comments to see if that’s actually true. And your comments should say, “Yeah, I tried this and this is the best potato soup to make for a large family,” or the easiest or the best potato soup, or the most potato potato soup.
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But keep in mind that it’s reading your content. It’s not just an algorithm at this point. It’s actually reading your content to “learn” to be able to synthesize an answer. So if you’re not showing up in the AIOs, there could be a lot of reasons for that. But one of the reasons probably is just because you were very much focused on presenting yourself for that just one specific query and we’re not covering the topic. Casey, take it away.
Casey Markee (00:22:02):
And what Arsen has just described there is the process of RAG, which is basically a Random Augmented Generation, a Retrieval Augmented Generation, my apologies. Basically what happens is that when Google is looking first to Gemini, the Gemini doesn’t necessarily have all the information they need. So they use RAG to go and they crawl the sites in real-time to grab that information. So that’s why sometimes you’ll have this hodgepodge of an answer, especially in AI Mode where it’s going in and they’re looking at chunks. They’re going in and looking at the pages. This is why structure and semantic headings, and putting everything in a very specific outline is so important.
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Andrew kind of said, hey, you don’t want everything to look the same, but honestly, you want to have a reliable structure. You want to use headings. You want to sometimes put your keywords in those headings so that Google and Gemini understand what it is that they’re trying to pull out. You also want to use things like FAQ blocks. You want to use bullet lists. You want to use schema as necessary to write up your content to be machine-readable. That’s what our goal is when we’re pulling that out.
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So we have clarity and structure. Basically what we’re looking at is direct answers, FAQs, how-tos, step-by-steps. All this stuff that you see in a regular recipe post helps Google understand that information being pulled in by RAG, to be pulled into these AI Overviews and everything else into AI Mode. Then we get into these entity-rich signals, which he kind of touched on, and that’s where we get like we can control that.
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Your goal is to be your own biggest cheerleader as much as possible. I cannot tell you how important this is in an AI-first world. You need to go out. You need to be using ChatGPT to say, “I am a food blogger located in this city, and I need you to generate me a list of all the TV and print and radio stations, and give me a contact person because I need to reach out to them and tell them I’m freaking awesome. And I’ll do cooking segments so that I can get my name and my brand out there,” because those are all crawlable mentions that will help your AI visibility. We’re building our brand there specifically.
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If you go in and type in, what can you tell me about Casey Markee, in a Gemini or ChatGPT? It is a long list of stuff because I have ruthlessly fed that information into those tools for several months. I think it’s very important for brand building, and I tell all my bloggers that I talked to, to please start doing the same. We could control that. We could say, “Oh, I’m surprised that you didn’t mention this about Helen on her blog.” “Oh, well, hey, do you have a resource on that?” “Well, I do. Here it is. Please update your database.” Update your version of ChatGPT or update, go in and start pushing those resources towards Gemini and Perplexity and everyone else.
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But our goal is to feed the bots a little bit as much as we can to help us there, and that’s really where we’re looking to. We have to really focus on making sure that we’ve provided what’s called multimodal clarity to these AI bots. We have to get them to understand the entities around ourselves and our content, and we have control over that. We can go in, we can just make sure that we are having everything parsable, that we’re providing plenty of information on our About Me page, that we’re really focusing on external brand citations and building up our own profile as much as we can. All of that will help you.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:25:24):
And this is why we’re so strict about your About page. That’s why it’s so important for you to link out to places where you’ve been interviewed, to places where you’ve been cited, where else you’ve contributed content. That schema markup, your authorship markup on your pages needs to be perfect. It needs to point to the right About. So you want to create those connectors from an entity matching and combining perspective and not so much, here’s my bio in my sidebar.
Casey Markee (00:25:55):
Yeah. I noticed a comment here from Carol that says, are you saying the comments are part of the ranking factors? That’s the wrong way to look at it. Comments, just like everything else on a page are crawlable and indexable. Matter of fact, we’ve been having very clear success with time on site and feeding LLMs by highlighting a nice comment higher on the page. Maybe you have the ability to do a too long didn’t read summary of your recipes. Look at selling that information at the top of the page.
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I talk about this in my Search Engine Land article from March. We talked about it when Arsen and I spoke last month. Really focus on selling the user at the top of the page. We don’t need these long boneless recipe posts anymore. Sell the user and the LLM right at the top. Here’s why this recipe, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom is worth your time. Here’s a comment showing how people love the crap out of it when they made it. Or here’s maybe a little focused photo of you with a little description saying, here’s why I want you to invest in this recipe. This recipe is better than all the other barbecue beans recipe in the world because of this. Use that to sell the user a little bit where it’s higher in the post, and that always helps you.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:05):
Casey’s been talking about this since I think the first episode, that you need to sell your content to the user. And it’s even more important now from even a ranking signal perspective, not a direct-
Casey Markee (00:27:15):
And again, and in no disrespect, and I say this all the time, the world does not need another potato soup recipe. The world does not need another barbecue beans recipe.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:24):
Hey, hey.
Casey Markee (00:27:25):
I know, I know, hard to believe.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:26):
Those are fighting words.
Casey Markee (00:27:29):
Just like you saying that we don’t need another bourbon cocktail.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:32):
Right.
Andrew Wilder (00:27:33):
Hey.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:27:38):
It’s making sure that the user is going to stay there, and that’s why it’s like even in your Google Analytics in GA4, there’s back to Google metric. So you can start understanding where there’s mismatch. The person clicked through did not find what they were looking for and made their way back to Google.
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Google sees this. We know Google sees this, so selling your content, anything you can do from that third-party validation, that bumping up of that comment of a positive rating or “I’ve made this and this is the easiest potato soup to make for 10 people,” at the top of the post. Think of it almost as like an ecommerce page, a product page. What do you see at the top? You see the star ratings, you see the picture.
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And that’s what you have at the top. You have your star ratings, you have an image, you have your featured image for the post. Bring in those elements, retain that user.
Melissa Rice (00:28:34):
Okay. I feel like we already talked a little bit about this, but Casey, Google seemed to focus almost entirely on AI, AI Overviews, AI Mode and so on. For many bloggers and publishers, it raised huge concerns about the future of relying on organic traffic. So do you think that model is still sustainable? And are we looking at a major shift in how bloggers grow? And like you said, monetizing needs to be creative, but what are your thoughts?
Casey Markee (00:29:05):
And you’re right, we did touch on some of the principles, and you’re right, the model is shifting. Basically, organic traffic still matters. I’m always going to believe that, but it’s no longer a reliable foundation on its own. Andrew talked about it and Arsen has talked about it. You really have to take a circular view of building everything. That’s why we’ve been hitting email, discoverability, and building your email list in the audits over the last year.
(00:29:27):
That’s why we’ve been talking about maybe you trying to go out and find all these local brand mentions so that you can build up your offline brand identity as much as you can. Or maybe it’s time for you to consider downloading, is it the Memberful plugin, Andrew, that does the memberships that you can install that? I think it’s called Memberful or something like that.
Andrew Wilder (00:29:48):
Yeah, that’s one of them. Yeah.
Casey Markee (00:29:49):
Fantastic. Plugin that allows you to set up a controlled pay per play membership, a community. I know a lot of bloggers have done that, very successful. There is room for that. You want to find other ways to monetize to build that community.
(00:30:05):
But Google is really clear. They revealed this at their IO event in May, which is that Google is no longer a search engine. They literally have said that they’re becoming an answer engine. Their goal is to provide the one-stop shop for everything. We mentioned AOL previously. That was not us being glib. That is absolutely happening. They’re trying to create their own walled garden where they keep everything in play.
(00:30:29):
And we’re getting an issue where organic traffic is just being squeezed. It exists, it is just being squeezed. We’re getting the AI Overviews, which are answering the query and keeping the click. We’re getting the AI Mode, which is removing recipe carousels completely. That’s fantastic, good times. And then we’re even getting these featured snippets, which are just part of a summary stack being generated by RAG retrieval.
(00:30:53):
And what we’re getting is that Google’s own messaging is clear. And we don’t have to like it, but the message from them is very clear. It’s just that you may get less traffic, but it’s going to be higher quality traffic. Well, the translation of that is you’ll get less, and that’s if you are even included. And that’s the truth of it.
(00:31:17):
So what can we as SEOs do? Our goal here is not just traditional search engine optimization, it’s visibility. It’s retrieval engine augmentation. Our goal is to make you visible. Our goal is to make you so awesome that the LLMs cannot ignore you, and we want to do that by taking a rounded approach. We want to look at really making sure that your site is sticky, that you put your posts in a way that are fully crawlable, that you understand the value of entities, that you understand, hey, you are part of your blog.
(00:31:47):
The most disappointing thing for me, and again I get it, is to have an audit with someone who they don’t have the time or the resources or maybe the personality to be visible. They don’t want to build their brand, they don’t want to go out and go to farmer’s markets, or they don’t want to go and build up their offline brand. They just maybe want to sit at home and do recipes.
(00:32:11):
I get it. But just understand that it has never been tougher for those kind of operations to succeed. And if you are on the call, please consider making a pivot because that is just not going to avail yourself. You’re just not going to have much success going forward. You have to be the squeaky wheel, not only to Google now but also to these LLMs.
(00:32:32):
And that’s kind of what we’re doing here, is for you to be survived in an AI world. We’ve got to future-proof you, and to future-proof you, that means making sure that we’ve got right structured diversified brand. And as Andrew likes to say, you own your audience. We own everything that we publish, and that’s very important for you to have success in an LLM-first world.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:32:56):
And it doesn’t have to be going out. We get the point with what Casey said. You don’t have to go out to farmer’s market and start a stand, right? There’s other ways that you can be a brand building online.
Casey Markee (00:33:10):
Cooking class. There’s video cooking class, maybe you try.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:33:14):
Right. Digital cooking class for kids or whatever it is. That kind of signaling is what’s going to make you stand out from everybody else who’s just essentially regurgitating everybody else who’s ranking. It’s something that’s going to help you stand out. It brings that unique value, that unique perspective that Google clearly keeps telling us that they’re looking for.
Melissa Rice (00:33:42):
Yeah. Hone it in. Andrew, you talked about how bloggers can use AI as a writing assistant, but do you have some favorite ways that you use AI? Or are there any tools that you would love to share with us?
Andrew Wilder (00:34:04):
I use ChatGPT most of the time myself. Actually if I go to… Well first of all, DuckDuckGo is my default search engine, not Google, has been for years. But if I search, I actually ignore the AI answers in search because I don’t expect them to be good quality, and I’m actually looking at traditional search results. Maybe that’s just me. But if I have something that’s more difficult that a traditional web search isn’t going to work for me for whatever reason, I actually just go open up ChatGPT.
(00:34:33):
And the thing that’s been most helpful for me lately is to pay attention to which model I’m using and to change it and to try different models. So pay the 20 bucks a month, it’s worth it. It’s worth every penny of that. And then start to get to know which models work better for which kinds of prompts and which kinds of tasks. So if you were doing deep research, o3 might be great. If you want just help with writing, 4.1 might be better.
(00:35:00):
And the cool thing is you can, on a given chat, you can change the model at the top where it’s like the default model for each prompt. But once something is generated at the bottom, there’s a little recycle arrow. You can click on that and have it regenerate with a different model. And I’m finding that super helpful because some models really just, I don’t know, they’re really thin answers. And then so it really depends on the task at hand. So I think for me, that’s helped me level up my AI usage.
(00:35:28):
And I think the other part of this is just figuring out how to use it so you can work faster and smarter and not harder because the whole idea of that the machines will replace us and we won’t have to work and we’ll live a life of luxury, that’s a lie. It’s been a lie with every industrial revolution and every technological revolution. And what happens is our output increases, but we work harder to keep up with the other people increasing their output.
(00:35:54):
So ultimately, I think the thing you can do is to learn how to use the tools through experimentation of your own that helps you work faster and smarter with at least as good if not better output. And then you’re going to be able to keep going.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:36:10):
Helps you work smarter, not harder.
Andrew Wilder (00:36:12):
Yeah.
Melissa Rice (00:36:14):
Exactly.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:36:14):
But you can do all kinds of cool stuff. You can ask it to review your content. You can ask, “Hey, did I stray too far away from the topic? Did I create a lot of dilution? Is there a better way of saying this?” You can do all kinds of things.
Casey Markee (00:36:29):
And that’s very true. It’s really about prompt engineering and there are plenty of guides out there. There are plenty of ways for you to improve. My prompt engineering has improved tenfold over the last six months. The more detailed and specific your prompts are, the better the output will be. Something that I’ve taught my son who is currently doing summer school is getting ready to go into a senior year at college, it’s changed his life. I mean, he went from a B average to now he’s an A average mostly because he’s been able to use ChatGPT so well to provide the content outlines, to provide information that allows him to stand apart.
(00:37:05):
And even better is training that AI. Now, everything that you have, you have a custom ChatGPT that allows you to commit everything to memory. And so it will learn to think like you, it will learn to write like you. And that is a good thing in many cases, especially if you are continuing to refine it. I mean a lot of people don’t think so. I’m absolutely a believer in it. So I mean it’s just a way for you to really increase, as Arsen said, smarter, not harder always.
Andrew Wilder (00:37:34):
I think it’s really important to recognize that switching tools all the time to chase the best thing isn’t necessarily the best strategy.
Casey Markee (00:37:42):
No, not at all.
Andrew Wilder (00:37:42):
I’m finding by being logged into my account and using the same tool, it’s getting better for me because it has memory now. And I’ll start a new chat and I’ll be working on something, and it was writing something in a reference to conference for my business and it used Tastemaker as the example. I didn’t say I’m going to the Tastemaker Conference in that, but it knows because NerdPress sponsors Tastemaker, that that’s part of… Seriously, it’s pulling in all of the memory as it writes now and it’s getting better and better.
Casey Markee (00:38:08):
As Zoe said, just keep an eye out for those em dashes.
Andrew Wilder (00:38:13):
Chicken and egg problem, because I use a lot of em dashes, so is it emulating my writing style or is it because-
Arsen Rabinovich (00:38:19):
I think it’s just because you’re a nerd.
Casey Markee (00:38:21):
You clearly just wrote like an AI to begin with, so congratulations.
Melissa Rice (00:38:26):
Well, we were talking about uniqueness and I don’t know. I mean, I will ask ChatGPT, here are all my strengths. What could I… For example a blogger, what can do to monetize other ways? I mean, if you’re thinking shallow, it helps deepen that pool. You know what I mean? So, get creative.
Andrew Wilder (00:38:45):
You could feed one of your category pages in there and say, “I’m building out this, what am I missing?”
Arsen Rabinovich (00:38:51):
I have never printed more web pages to PDF as I have in the last two months.
Casey Markee (00:39:00):
And just very clear, and I’m sure this is common sense to a lot of people. One of the big mistakes that people make with ChatGPT is using compare and contrast. Because when you use compare and contrast with existing search results, all you’re doing is regurgitating information that already exists. And that is absolutely not going to reward you with AI Gemini or AI Overviews, or especially not AI Mode. You have to really be very detailed with your prompts.
(00:39:21):
Set up your prompts. Say, “Please ask me leading questions so that I can clarify and have an output that’s as qualified as possible to what I’m looking to do,” and then make sure that you have all the information you need to make an improvement. It’s not enough for you to just say, “Hey, I’m trying to rank for this and here are the two sites beating me. Tell me what they’re doing that I’m not doing.” That is not going to get you number one, I’m sorry. That is not how it works.
(00:39:44):
All you’re doing is regurgitating information and you’re going to put all that information on your page, and Google’s not going to see any differentiation at all. No original expertise, nothing, complete waste of time. You really have to understand how to use ChatGPT correctly. You do that and the sky is limit.
Melissa Rice (00:40:05):
All right. Throwing it back to helpful content update, Arsen, for those bloggers that were significantly impacted, what have you seen in terms of recovery? We still had people asking about this a lot a couple of weeks ago. Could you provide maybe a rough estimate of a percentage of sites that have regained some of that traffic?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:40:28):
No.
Melissa Rice (00:40:28):
Okay.
Arsen Rabinovich (00:40:29):
There’s no rough percentage in anything anymore. So look, those who have been affected by the HCU, whether it was a byproduct of them not being helpful or they were cohorted into the not helpful group let’s say, by for whatever reason even if they didn’t deserve it, but what that did essentially if we put it really simply is it cleaned up the results. Google got rid of anything that it felt was unhelpful, so it was left only with stuff that was Google considered helpful. And then that continued to get refined and refined and refined with every single following update with its kind of like big explosion in August of 2024 where that HCU process was absorbed. And Casey will chime in and be more science about this.
(00:41:27):
But essentially, the recovery, are you going to recover the content that was considered not helpful and classified as not helpful without any efforts? Probably not. There have been select situations, and I’ve looked at these sites where nothing was done and the site returned. But that doesn’t happen to everyone.
Casey Markee (00:41:52):
And those kind of false positives do exist and they are in the hundreds, could be thousands…
Arsen Rabinovich (00:41:56):
Right. So what we do see as a recovery is somebody who’s put in the work, who really understood, who listened and implemented and really understood what Google wants from your content moving forward.
(00:42:14):
And those who applied that to content that was affected and applied it properly, and didn’t just shoot and forget and actually nurtured that content back to life, and paid attention with every subsequent update on how the content behaved whether it moved up or down, which keywords improved, which keywords decreased to understand in which contextual direction Google is pulling your content and where you’ve created more saturation or less focus and massage those pieces back into place and I’ve shown examples of this on my Mediavine webinars, those recovered.
(00:42:51):
Who put in the work, and did they recover a hundred percent? No. Because there’s queries that you lost that you shouldn’t have had at all. And now that Google has a bit in case you want to go secondary queries, Google ranked you there because it didn’t have a good understanding of what the user wanted. Maybe it was too ambiguous or there was some kind of a weird matching happening. And now that the search engine is smarter, it uses better technology, it’s much better at understanding intent than why the user is searching for something.
(00:43:21):
That piece of content is no longer probably relevant, whether it’s a document type mismatch, maybe it went from informational to commercial, maybe it was a roundup and now it’s an individual post that’s ranking there. For whatever reason, you can’t expect a hundred percent recovery but you can augment it or supplement it with creating new content, really understanding what users are looking for. Asking your subscribers, “Hey, what kind of content would you like to see for me?” It doesn’t have to be all recipes. It could be procedural, how to cut potatoes, how to wash potatoes, other things.
(00:43:58):
Recovery is possible, but it doesn’t happen on its own. Casey?
Casey Markee (00:44:02):
Yeah, I was very fortunate to work with a site about a year ago and she was hit by the helpful content update. She’d been basically at a level of traffic that was less than 5,000 clicks a month for 16 months. And it wasn’t just the helpful content update, she had a significant amount of problems. We took a kitchen sink approach. Literally, she had 350 posts on our side and she rewrote every one of them. Every one of them. She didn’t publish any new content for a year.
(00:44:32):
Her traffic is up 542%. The screenshots are on my website now while they’re on Facebook, and that’s not uncommon. It’s not just a matter of getting out of the filter because there was a filter, but she just made her site so algorithmically attractive to Google that they’d be embarrassed not to rank them. And you can see the thing. It’s not like she shot up 300% in a month. She shot up 500% in a year because it was a steady rise as she continued updating the content, getting the topical authority down, adding table of contents, author bios, strengthening her expertise signals, working to make fresh, timely content updates, making sure that their internal linking was up to snuff. She expanded her email. She did everything that she did.
(00:45:16):
She put in the work. And I’ll tell you that that is rare. I mean, I get it all the time that there is a lot of stuff that has to be done, but sometimes someone will come to me and say, “Casey, it’s been six months and I really haven’t seen any improvement.” I’m like, “Well, here’s a list of 10 things from the audit you still haven’t done.” I get it. We only have so much time, but you have to do everything. Your goal is to make sure that there is no stone left unturned. Optimizing your category pages, making sure that we’ve removed content cannibalism issues, making sure all technical issues are fixed, really focusing on removing superfluous information.
(00:45:53):
You just don’t need five photos of the finished traditional recipe posts these days. You don’t need to have every recipe have an alt tag that just is a focus keyword. You don’t need to have recipe cards that don’t have any useful notes, or maybe you just forgot to fill out all of your information. It goes on and on and on. It’s a continual process.
(00:46:14):
But people, your sites are not books where you need to continually add pages. I had an email just the other day from someone wanting to onboard for an audit. Casey, I can’t qualify for any of it. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m publishing 12 to 15 posts a week. No, absolutely not. There’s no way those 12 to 15 posts are so high as meets the needs that Google would be embarrassed not to rank you. You really focus on quality, not quantity. Really focus on making sure that your site is so attractive that there’s no reason it shouldn’t rank.
(00:46:46):
And I mentioned this before, we’ve never been in a situation where… We’ve never had more food, lifestyle, and travel blogs at any point in history than right now. There is no interaction that’s going to happen because there is less visibility, less traffic, and less patience for content that isn’t high quality going around.
(00:47:14):
And maybe we need that. Maybe we do need support of leveling out in that regard. I know that’s hard to hear, but there is some content out there that just should not rank regardless of how much work you put into it. And that’s a reality that that’s why many times we’ll have an audit section in the last couple of months. Sometimes, it’s partially a therapy session, and I’m totally okay with it being a therapy session to say, “Hey, you’re killing it in here, but this is not going to work, okay? This is not acceptable. We have to change your business plan. We have to change your expectations.”
(00:47:53):
I don’t like being the bad guy. I’m a girl’s dad, a girl’s dad, end of story. So it’s very tough for me to sit at the end of a Zoom call and say, “You did great here, you did great here, but this is why we can’t get the rank.” We have to change your focus here. I know you love these type of posts. These posts are not for you. And sometimes, the blogger accepts that and they do very, very well, and sometimes they do not and they go seek another opinion. Totally okay.
Melissa Rice (00:48:27):
Well, the chat was busy while you were talking, Casey. I mean, Carol, you can always hop on a call with us. We’ll be happy to take a look at your site.
Casey Markee (00:48:38):
Exactly. No worries, anytime.
Melissa Rice (00:48:40):
Yeah. Andrew, I want to get this in. I know we’re running a little bit shorter on time, but when making major updates to a post, what’s the current best practice around changing the published date? Even if a theme shows a last updated label, it seems like Google still prioritizes the original publish date which can hurt click-through rates in time-sensitive niches. So what do you recommend?
Andrew Wilder (00:49:05):
So there’s been a lot of chatter about this, and Raptive has recently come out and said, you should show only the most recent date, so basically the published date or the last updated date, if there is one that’s newer. The idea is Google’s only going to show one date in the search results. So you want it to show the newest one to help encourage a higher click-through rate. If you have something you wrote in 2015 and you updated it in January of 2025, you want it to show January 2025 because that’s going to look like fresher content and people are going to click through.
(00:49:38):
That’s at least the theory. My thing is, I think showing both dates is useful for readers because it gives additional context. So if you wrote a post in 2015 and you’ve updated it, that shows longevity. It shows it’s been around for 10 years that you were forward-thinking 10 years ago, but you’re also keeping it fresh. So either way, both dates, the published date and the modified date are going to be in the schema. So Google’s going to know the date either way. So really this is about convincing Google, hey, show the newer date.
(00:50:09):
One thing you can try before you remove both dates, and this may or may not work. We’ve seen mixed success. It worked on my site, is change the order. So it shows the last updated date first, originally published on second. And when I did it on my site, I made the last updated bold. And when I had Google recrawl some pages, it actually did update the date. It didn’t do it on all of them, but that’s one sort of balanced approach.
(00:50:30):
Another way you can be able to show the last updated date but in the top of the content, say, I originally published this on so-and-so date. It doesn’t have to be in the post-meta to give the reader that context. But if you do it that way, because it’s in the meta with the meta tags, Google may be more likely to pick that up.
(00:50:45):
So, it depends how important it is to you in terms of the click-through rates. But I still think most important thing is good context for the reader because when they land at the top of your page and they see something, giving them as much information as possible so that they’re willing to stick around and scroll down instead of hit the back button I think is really important.
(00:51:02):
So especially for time-sensitive niches, I think that makes a big difference too.
Melissa Rice (00:51:07):
Perfect. Casey, we’ll save maybe a minute or two for this question before we move into questions from our audience. But what is the biggest thing that bloggers should be focusing on moving into Q3?
Casey Markee (00:51:24):
I think the biggest issue isn’t traffic, it’s lack of visibility in AI systems, period. When we talk about if your content isn’t quotable, if it’s not scannable or structured for Gemini, it won’t matter how good it is, it will not be seen. So we really have to start thinking about that. You can block bots if you’d like, but understand that the good thing about AI Overviews and AI Mode is that that’s not from bots. That’s regular part of course search, it’s all RAG. We talked about that earlier. So you can certainly still get consideration for that if you do it, but it might limit your reach other places.
(00:52:01):
The good thing to understand about all this AI stuff is that bot traffic is still only at most one and a half percent a month for most bloggers. And that’s if you’re tracking it with GA4 and UTM parameters. There is not a ton of traffic coming in that we could track specifically. Now that could go up at any time, and I suspect that it will, but we want to really focus on auditing, restructuring, and repositioning because if we don’t, especially in this paradigm that we’re in, you will be invisible.
(00:52:40):
And it’s just something to be aware of. And that’s something that I really talk about in the audits a lot. And I’ll, preferably in the next article, that I’m going to publish for Search Engine Land which will be out in the next month all about visibility for bloggers in an LLM-first world.
Melissa Rice (00:52:57):
Okay. Arsen, I know you wanted to talk about some specific stuff. You want to chime in?
Arsen Rabinovich (00:53:03):
Yeah. So a lot of questions about this paper crawl that’s happening with Cloudflare. Andrew, Casey, thoughts?
Casey Markee (00:53:19):
Andrew, please go first, then I can do the deficiencies and the cons.
Andrew Wilder (00:53:23):
Okay. So first thing I want to do is clear up some confusion. It’s in private beta. Nobody’s using it yet effectively. There might be a couple of large corporations testing it, but really this isn’t something you can turn on right now.
Casey Markee (00:53:37):
Which is funny because Raptive just sent out an email.
Andrew Wilder (00:53:40):
Oh, I didn’t see it yet.
Casey Markee (00:53:41):
Yeah, telling people that, hey, just want to let you know that Cloudflare is locking on your AI bots.
Andrew Wilder (00:53:46):
So Cloudflare simultaneously did something else. They also for, I believe it’s just for new free accounts, they started blocking AI bots by default. And during the onboarding process, there’s an option to turn that on. I don’t think they turned it on retroactively for existing accounts, so I don’t think they actually, I don’t think they were that bold to make that change. But if you sign up for Cloudflare, move your domain to Cloudflare during that onboarding process now, they’re saying, hey, we’re going to block AI bots unless you tell us not to.
(00:54:12):
What they’re trying to do is throw down the gauntlet here in favor of content creators. And they’re trying to do it very carefully. I think I really appreciate what they’re doing actually. And so they’re basically trying to say, “Hey, look, you’re scraping all this content. You’re basically stealing it. You need to pay content creators for this work.” So they’re in a position to try to become basically the data broker or the merchant of record, I think they called it, where they give you the tools to say, “Hey, F you, pay me,” to the bot and then collect the money and then transfer the money.
(00:54:45):
So this is basically, at this stage, it’s a proposal. We don’t have access to it yet. I know Mediavine did a big push with the Mediavine and BigScoots hosting, they’re not doing it yet. So nobody make any changes, please. And everybody take a breath. I think we should be thinking about what the idea is. Do we like the idea? And then we’re going to figure out, are they actually able to implement it? Are these AI crawlers? Is OpenAI, is Google going to pay or are they just going to stop crawling pages that charge?
(00:55:12):
There’s a lot of unknowns here. This is really uncharted territory for everybody, and it’s happening at a very large scale very quickly. I get that. And right now, the way they’ve presented it for the first iteration is you’re going to be able to set a price per page across your site.
Casey Markee (00:55:29):
Oh, well, but that’s across the whole site.
Andrew Wilder (00:55:31):
Across the whole site. That’s in their blog post yesterday. That’s what they said.
Casey Markee (00:55:36):
So think about, so let’s talk about that real quick. So right away, that’s a bad model. Why? Because if you’ve got the world’s best vanilla cupcakes recipe to access that piece of content, which is probably driving 60% of your revenue in some cases, which is crazy, I know, but I’ve seen it. That’s going to be worth the same amount to an AI bot as your category page. So that kind of model right there is already flawed.
(00:56:04):
Now, we also have things over, and Andrew would know this better than me, but most of the AI bots, as far as I know, and I know this is the fact for Gemini and ChatGPT, they do not support HTTP 402. So that right away a nonstarter. So I don’t know if they’re going to change that or whatever, and then we get the, we’ve already talked about the single flat pricing. I think some kind of a tiered pricing would be better, but you don’t have any control over the bots. You don’t have any control over the limits, at least not from what I saw in the rollout. And you are also not going to get any sort of granular licensing.
(00:56:38):
For example, maybe we would want to allow the bots to go in for licensing for training purposes, but not for citations. Or maybe we want to have them come in for citations and not for training purposes. Those are the kinds of things that will have to be sorted out, and hopefully Cloudflare is up for that.
(00:56:57):
But the thing to understand is that we have a prisoner’s dilemma here. The prisoner’s dilemma is that there is going to be a group of people who are just not going to do this because they will have the benefit of not opting in. That’s the prisoner’s dilemma. You have that in everything. It’s just like if I tell two people in two different worlds, the first one who agrees to this deal is going to get a million dollars, yeah, you’re going to probably screw over the person in the other room as fast as you can to do that.
(00:57:26):
It’s the same thing with AI. We would like to live in a holistic world where everyone is going to kumbaya and work together to limit these AI bots. That is not necessarily what’s going to happen. So, we’ll just have to wait and see.
Andrew Wilder (00:57:38):
Yeah. I just want to reiterate for any NerdPress clients on there, if this is possible for us to implement, we will implement it. I mean, I’m already talking to my Cloudflare rep, this was all news to him yesterday morning too. In many ways, this is a big PR push. And I really appreciate that for what it is because it is saying, “Hey, look, you guys, crawlers, you need to take notice,” because this business model is not sustainable on either end right now what’s happening with the crawlers crawling your sites for free and then plagiarizing your content in the output, which is why we’re all stressed out. I mean, you guys can tell I’m pretty amped today.
(00:58:17):
So I appreciate that Cloudflare is trying to find a solution. If anybody’s in a position to try to find to actually solve this, I think Cloudflare is one of the most likely contenders because of the way they’re set up and the tools that they already have for detecting AI and blocking traffic, et cetera. We’re going to have to wait and see how this plays out. The tools right now as they start, they’re going to be very primitive like Casey was talking about.
Casey Markee (00:58:37):
And this is only, this is Cloudflare only. Correct?
Andrew Wilder (00:58:40):
And this is only Cloudflare. This is literally-
Casey Markee (00:58:42):
Is that on the call, Cloudflare only.
Andrew Wilder (00:58:44):
Yep. And so I know Mediavine just did a big splashy thing saying, “We will support you,” and that’s genuine, but we’re all just trying to keep up with this stuff as everybody is asking all these questions. And I think it’s important to take a breath and go, okay, what’s really happening? What’s really possible and what are other people going to do? And then make an informed decision. Don’t make a knee-jerk decision when stuff comes out. So I’ll obviously be staying on top of this and keeping people posted as much as I can and trying to provide a balanced approach rather than a sensationalist one as much as I can.
Melissa Rice (00:59:24):
Love that. Arsen, anything else to add? You’ve got…
Arsen Rabinovich (00:59:32):
Nothing from my end. I agree with what Andrew and Casey and all of this.
Melissa Rice (00:59:38):
No pressure. I know we weren’t able to answer some questions today, but don’t worry, they will be a part of the recap blog post.
Casey Markee (00:59:43):
Absolutely. All of them.
Melissa Rice (00:59:44):
All of them. I made sure to screenshot everything. Just a reminder, we’ve got episodes every month with the TopHat chats in between our quarterly episodes with the full panel. So later this month on the 23rd, Arsen is going to be joined by Adam Riemer. They’re going to talk about alternative ways to monetize your content. So July 23rd, we will send out an email blast with the registration link, but be sure to join us then. Thank you everybody.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:00:12):
Thanks everyone.
Casey Markee (01:00:13):
Happy Fourth of July, everyone. We’ll see you again soon.
Arsen Rabinovich (01:00:14):
Happy fourth.
Casey Markee (01:00:15):
See you out there.
Melissa Rice (01:00:15):
Bye now. All right.
Andrew Wilder (01:00:15):
Bye.
Melissa Rice (01:00:15):
All right.
